[00:00:00] Katja: you couldn't have that conversation at any other conference and you could only have it if someone forces you to go outside and talk about it, like, without pointing at a screen, it was brilliant.

[00:00:10] Jared: Hey folks, welcome back to Elm Town. I'm your host, Jared M. Smith. We'll be visiting with Katja Mordaunt and Wolfgang Schuster today to talk about the experience at Elm Camp 2024. So this will be a little bit different, but I think it'll be some fun and folks who didn't get to be there will hopefully get to at least have an idea of what the experience was like.

[00:00:34] Setting the scene

[00:00:34] Jared: So one of the first things that I would like to do is, Katja, if you wouldn't mind, to just kind of set the scene and tell us a little bit about where Elm Camp was and what it was like there.

[00:00:47] Katja: Yeah, sure, so, this year we ended up, having Elm Camp in Devon, uh, on the edge of Dartmoor, which is a wilderness area in the, on the south coast of England, which, coincidentally or not coincidentally is very near to where I live. So we had a little bit of Elm Camp adventures for a couple days before Elm Camp and after Elm Camp with people like, um, traveling to and from, which was really nice.

[00:01:13] The place that it was in, um, as with our precedent that we set last year, we are trying to hold Elm Camp in a place where people can actually literal camp. And also where we can take over a big house. Uh, where everyone has the option to stay in the same property together and, um, have lots of nice, like, nature connections, walks outside.

[00:01:37] So that's why it's away from a city, which also made it very difficult to get to. So, again, as with last year, we had a lot of, um, taxi nightmares, because in the rural areas, uh, there aren't that many taxis, and, um, Yeah, they get very, very confused and overwhelmed when you say, can we get 40 people to this remote location now or from?

[00:02:02] I think we had more problems getting people away from Elm Camp than we did actually getting there. yeah, so, so the, the setting, I guess it's, it's a big, uh, it was in a manor house with, uh, 86 beds. Some of those beds were bunk beds. Um, a lot of the bedrooms had like seven beds in them and, um, we, we basically sold the ticket rooms so that people, if they wanted a really cheap ticket, could share a bedroom with, uh, up to seven other people, and split the cost.

[00:02:29] Or people could buy a whole bedroom, um, to themselves. And I think we had, uh, probably about half, half shared rooms and half single rooms or maybe, maybe a bit more shared rooms. and the beautiful thing about the shared rooms was a lot of them were couples, um, people who brought their partners who were not, um, maybe traditionally part of the Elm community as such.

[00:02:51] And one, one couple even brought a two year old child, which was amazing. So yeah, that's, that's the vibe. And we had six, six tents. And one person who built a shelter and did some wild camping on one of the nights as well.

[00:03:05] Jared: Oh, wow. That's really cool. They built their own shelter.

[00:03:10] Katja: They did. Uh, so we, we had, yeah, woods, we had a lake that we could swim in, we had llamas, like, um, Lamdera branded. Yeah, Larry and Lily, they had names. Um, yeah, I guess, is that, I mean, is that kind of, is that enough about the, the setting the scene? Yeah.

[00:03:33] Jared: Yeah, that sounds great. Now.

[00:03:36] Katja: had a campfire.

[00:03:37] Jared: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's you got to have a campfire. If you're camping. Um, so yeah, that sounds great. So you had a lot of nature around, a lot of shared space, everybody's together. There's not a lot of, once you're there, you're kind of there, right? You don't have to figure out each day how you're getting back and forth to

[00:03:58] Wolfgang: Right, right, yeah. It was, I think we had one person who stayed off site and made their own arrangements to get on site, but otherwise, yeah. It was all 24 7 for four days, get to see everyone all the time. was very nice, like, I know I very much enjoyed it.

[00:04:19] Katja: Yeah, yeah. It's really, it's really, really good. And, yeah, people, people playing pool at like 2 o'clock, 4 o'clock in the morning.

[00:04:27] Jared: Oh, yeah, that sounds right up my alley. Um, so yeah, I guess Wolfgang, from your perspective, I know you've written a little bit about some reflections on your Elm Camp 2024 experience and you have some pictures in there. It looks like there's some, you know, some large, really large old growth trees. And so, yeah, do you want to talk a little bit about how you see it?

[00:04:54] Wolfgang: Yeah, uh, I did realize, going through my photos and the ones I shared on my blog post, and then even putting them together in an album for family to see my trip in general, I did realize that almost all of my photos for Elm Camp are of, like, fields and forests, and I think there, I only had a few that were of people and of the building, um, just because it was that much, like, there was that much wooded area and fields around, which was, it was nice.

[00:05:24] And yeah, there was a giant cork tree out by the campfire area, and there was a tiny island in the pond lake that had an enormous tree on it. We were debating about what kind of tree it was. I don't remember what the conclusion was, but yeah, it was, it was very pretty. There was also, there was a piano on site, in their like, little bar area.

[00:05:48] , I think two or three nights, people were playing piano, there was someone singing, a tiny bit of dancing, I believe, one night as well. Uh,

[00:05:59] Katja: amazing.

[00:06:01] Jared: Wow.

[00:06:02] Katja: Some very, very talented people in the Elm community on music and art. There was someone who was like documenting the event with watercolors and sketches. And hopefully, he did promise that he would upload those somewhere that we could see. But they're really beautiful. Yeah,

[00:06:20] Jared: Oh, wow. Nice. So a mix of music and art and

[00:06:25] Katja: yeah, it's wild, like, even hearing Katja talk about it now, like, Like, I think I had overheard about the, the, the watercolor maybe on Friday morning as I was leaving, and so I wasn't aware it was even happening while I was there, or, or like the, the actual setting up of a campsite. Like, I know you were camping and others were too, but I didn't know anyone, like, built a camp of sorts while they were there. So despite being present and talking to people for the entire time, it seems like there was a lot going on that I was completely unaware of, which is cool. It's really nice. Yeah, there was so much going on. And same with that pool playing that I was talking about at like 2 o'clock in the morning. For the first night, I think everyone was too scared to go down in the basement.

[00:07:10] Because it was like, A literal basement. And, um, and, yeah, then I think it wasn't until the third night that actually people got brave enough and then they were, yeah, they were making loads of noise down there, having lots of fun.

[00:07:24] So I think we could have, you could have extended it to another, another night and goodness knows what would have happened, yeah, with the amping up of how comfortable because when you're staying in a place like that Like, you as a community take over the whole thing. It takes you like, a little while before you feel comfortable and confident, and by the third night, everybody was just like, felt like it was our house, and we could do, yeah, do anything and go anywhere.

[00:07:48] Jared: Oh, wow. That sounds really nice. So, sounds like the, the vibes were pre laid back. You have nature, so it allows you to kind of reset and, just have that creative beauty around you from, from nature.

[00:08:03] Sessions

[00:08:03] Jared: And so then I guess getting a little bit into what all was going on now, I know, you know, it's considered a, um, whatever is there is, is not necessarily public. And you can talk a little bit more about, uh, exactly how to, how to phrase that, but yeah, I know that there's some, you know, some intention there and being, clear about what is, um, available for the wider community. And then what is just kind of, we want to get the people here, their feedback and see how that goes.

[00:08:35] So, but I guess from outside of that, then were there any particular session highlights that you can talk about? Or any particular conversations that were really interesting directions that you might see the community go in? Anything like

[00:08:50] Katja: and I'll just clarify that. So, so what you were talking about, about the privacy of the event is just to make sure that people who are there feel, um, that they can exactly, as you say, get feedback from just the, the folks who are around before they feel like they want to go like fully public with what they're working on or, or their, or their ideas.

[00:09:11] And it's also means that it's a place where people can ask questions that they might not want, like, members of the, you know, public or whatever, like a wider community to, um, to know that they had questions about that particular thing or whatever. So, we can, yeah, I think we can talk about all the sessions.

[00:09:31] Especially not, I mean, even at the, even at the camp, uh, all the sessions are proposed anonymously. So people write down what they want to discuss or what they, a question they have or, or what they're interested in talking about and then put it on a post it note. And, um, they, they then get scheduled in, um, without knowing actually who's the person who's, who's running the session necessarily.

[00:09:53] So, um, and it's very much like, I think one person commented. on that it felt so wonderful to have like every session was like not a person presenting their library or a person um talking about something that they'd done but it was more about like people having conversations about things and that's the intent of it is to just get a bunch of people in in a room to talk about something.

[00:10:21] I think most of the sessions were like between 10 and 20 people. Uh, I think there were a couple of sessions where most of the people at Elm Camp went. There were 46 people there. But for the most part the, the sessions were smaller and then there was loads of little breakouts where people were pairing on side projects or, um, there were a couple of people who were like almost sort of brand new to Elm and so there was like some members of the community who sat with them and like went through like.

[00:10:51] How to get started and answered some of their, um, sort of more beginner like questions, which was really lovely, really lovely to see. Yeah, so we also had like a lot of sessions that were not about Elm. We kind of tried to force people to think like that. Like, we want to have conversations that are not just programming.

[00:11:10] And we also tried to force people to go outside. We had one whole block of time for three hours one morning where every session had to take place outside. Of course, we didn't demand that everyone comes outside, but we did demand that all the sessions were offered outside. So that was quite fun too, like just going through the list of post its and saying like, Could you do this outside?

[00:11:34] Could you do this outside? And then like watching different groups of people like find a big tree to sit under and stuff. Yeah, that was really cool.

[00:11:41]

[00:11:41]

[00:11:41] Wolfgang: I really liked those. I think those were some of the more interesting discussions in a way, because it forced you to kind of stand or sit and just chat. Like there was one, I know, , I think it was one of the first ones in the morning around the campfire that someone was asking about, uh, gardening and chickens and it ended up being two other people, I think.

[00:12:04] One explains, or one person was explaining about their experience having chickens kind of in like the more city areas of England and raising chickens there, and then another, and then it got into like raising kids in like more rural areas of Europe. And what that experience is like. Which is just completely unexpected, and But everyone seemed to be having a lot of fun with it.

[00:12:30] And really, really engaged with the conversation.

[00:12:34] Katja: Yeah, and I had one outside that was a book group where people were just talking about what books they've been reading lately. And, um, I might be able to give you some of those titles. I can't off the top of my head right now remember any except for one called Crooked Plow. But yeah, they were very diverse, those books as well. There was like some science fiction, some self help, some programming books, someone, someone mentioned Clean Code. Um, and, and then like some like flat out just romance novels, like there was, yeah, all sorts. Um, yeah, that, and, and another one that I went to outside was one, I can't remember the exact title of it, but it was about the fact that pages don't exist.

[00:13:14] And on the internet, we always keep talking about pages, and pages in the, like, concept that we have them are not, like, really what's happening when you make, when you make a web page. It's not the same thing as a page in a book. Um, and that was just, like, yeah, a really, really fun conversation, or, and also interesting that we do, you know, that we want to try and shift that paradigm of how we talk about pages.

[00:13:36] Talking outside the box

[00:13:36] Katja: And I think you could only have, you, you couldn't have that conversation at any other conference and you could only have it if someone forces you to go outside and talk about it, like, without pointing at a screen, it was brilliant.

[00:13:48] Jared: Yeah, so you're kind of getting outside of the literal box and, and then, yeah, um, it's, yeah, it sounds like it would be kind of freeing and, and of course, yeah, having that openness to talk about whatever you want. And I think, you know, people. When you're in a typical conference, and you have one person up on stage, and everyone else is listening to that one person, it's difficult to have a conversation, right?

[00:14:17] And I know, you know, we talked about this before, I think, with, um, the, uh, The last year, the Elm Camp conversation about, you know, making it an unconference and, and what that entails and, you know, being purposeful about that. And it sounds like that's really paid off and what kind of conversations and sessions have come out or un sessions have come out of that.

[00:14:38] So

[00:14:38] Katja: Yeah. And I think one difference from what we did last year and this year, which was, uh, not intentional, um, but it worked out really, really well, and I plan to do it again next year, was that all the meeting spaces were like, a big living room with lots of sofas and people sat on the floor and sat on the sofas and another one which was like around a big kitchen table with like a refrigerator and toaster and stuff so you're like you're sitting in an informal space and another one was um somebody set up as the Council of Elmrond, Elmrond?

[00:15:11] Is that right? With a flag at the back, and there was a coffee table in the middle, and a circle of chairs, and so we were trying to get away from, like, the conference y, like, row of chairs vibe, and yeah, somebody, somebody set that up in the ballroom where it was, like, in the corner with a little Elm flag.

[00:15:26] And that, yeah, it does make, it makes a huge difference. We had screens for people if they needed them and stuff, but it was like, yeah, just sitting on a sofa or sitting on the floor next to someone talking about, you know. Multi threaded Elm is, like, different to sitting in a lecture theatre, isn't it?

[00:15:43] Wolfgang: It was very, the Council of Elmrond setting was very organic, like, it was someone set up chairs just to have a nice seating area and it happened to be a circle and then someone came in and was like, oh, this looks like Lord of the Rings. And it just kind of grew from there. But think about it, like,

[00:16:02] Jared: Yeah, I think, go ahead. Okay.

[00:16:05] Wolfgang: Reflecting on that a bit, it almost reminds me of my sign language classes in college in that they force you to sit in a circle so that everyone can see each other. And it is very, it's much more engaging for everyone than the more theater style, presentation style seating of a normal conference.

[00:16:25] Jared: Yeah, seems like it'd be difficult to fall asleep when, uh, you're all looking at

[00:16:31] Katja: Nobody was sleeping. Not even Jim. I'm not, I'm not, not gonna, not gonna mention any names, but yeah, not, not even Jim was sleeping.

[00:16:40] Jared: that sounds good.

[00:16:42] Katja: do you want us to kind of mention like a flavor of like some of the talks? Because there were, there were a few themes that kept coming up and there were a lot of technical talks as well that if you want us to, I don't know, throw out some, some of those.

[00:16:57] Thanks.

[00:16:58] Jared: one thing I want to mention before, um, you do that is that I wanted to note also that Martin Janiczek has some notes from Elm Camp 2024, and I believe there's a picture of the Council of Elmrond in there. So

[00:17:13] Katja: Nice!

[00:17:14] Jared: about, about what that looks like, uh, I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

[00:17:19] So yeah, go ahead. Let's, let's hear about it.

[00:17:21] Themes

[00:17:21] Katja: One of the main themes was about community, and also about education. Um, so there was like a session on how can we improve the world, like, as a community, what can we do and what, what came out of that was, to like, start locally. So, uh, start improving like your local community or your local setting and let that kind of branch out into the world.

[00:17:44] And I think that feels very much like an, uh, an Elm way of doing things. And, um, I think locally can also be this international community that we have. It means just kind of like, start with each other that you're connected to deeply. Right. And then, and move out from that rather than thinking like, oh, we're gonna, you know, go and cure malaria or whatever when it's kind of not part of our problem that we're living in. Um, so that was one really nice thing. And something that came out of that conversation as well was, again, the person who built the shelter in the woods was saying that it's really sometimes a side effect of doing something, is beneficial to something else that you didn't intend and so their example was that if you build like in the UK There's this tradition of building like fairy like houses, like little grottos, basically, where you have like a pond and a little door for them to come and save space.

[00:18:42] But actually what that then ends up doing is building like a really nice place for animals, birds and insects to come and use the water and, or hide in the little grotto that you've built for like the fantastical creatures. And the motivation for like, trying to draw in the fantastical creatures is actually helping something in the real world and I thought that was really nice to think about. And then, yeah, in terms of education, there's people doing really great work on trying to use Elm as like one of the foundational ways of teaching functional programming. There's some university curriculums who are dabbling in it. There's people doing projects with kids in schools and libraries and different, yeah, different sorts of discussions around that.

[00:19:29] And then, I'm in part of a discussion about, , trying to make, to localize Elm, so like trying to make it so that people can learn Elm in their own languages. And, um, we're moving very slowly on that, but that again is like something about, you know, focusing on, on the local. and then there was conversations about missing tools and packages.

[00:19:49] Like what are the, like, fundamental things that come up for people that aren't there yet in Elm. Um, there were lots of conversations around that. Do you want to jump in, Wolfgang, about some that you remember?

[00:20:03] Wolfgang: Trying to think of what else there was, yeah. There was, uh, I remember there was talks about scripting, using elm-pages scripts and writing CLI tools in Elm.

[00:20:15] Katja: Yeah, and loads of people there didn't even, like, weren't aware that that was even a thing that existed. So that was

[00:20:21] Wolfgang: Yeah, that was one I ended up co hosting as a sort of like explaining to people, despite like, I didn't bring it up. People were just asking about it, and it just so happened that I was one of the people there who does a lot of that. So, which was kind of fun. It wasn't something I was asking to talk about, but ended up being able to help others.

[00:20:42] Uh, there was a talk on Inertia, or InertiaJS, that was really cool. Um, That

[00:20:50] Katja: Which is basically like a JavaScript front end for, um, frameworks like Rails or Laravel. And there's a, there's an Elm adapter for it, so, you can build very easily Elm front ends for, those bigger frameworks.

[00:21:06] Jared: cool.

[00:21:07] Wolfgang: elm-review. There's lots of talks about elm-review and how to use it.

[00:21:12] Katja: tricks and, and updates from the author himself.

[00:21:17] Wolfgang: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:21] Katja: There was stuff around compilers. And there was one talk that I did not

[00:21:25] go to called like, Become a compiler dev or something like that. Um, uh, people were very excited afterwards and I've seen people talking in the discord about being compiler devs now.

[00:21:36] So, so that's leveled some people up. Um, and then, uh, open sourcing Lamdera was announced, which I'm pretty sure is okay to talk about, but maybe

[00:21:46] Jared: Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:21:48] Katja: Um, and there was graphics, 3D graphics talks.

[00:21:52] JSON, I don't know what that one was, but like Elm and JSON. Uh, Virtual DOM.

[00:21:59] Wolfgang: Virtual DOM, the virtual DOM stuff was very interesting. I'm really hoping that pans out. Yeah, I think there was like four sessions involving like compilers or like the Elm compiler in some way, all like slightly adjacent to each other.

[00:22:14] Katja: And, uh, Gren was mentioned in relation to the source maps, I think, and Gleam was mentioned as well, but not talked about extensively. Um, so yeah, trying to, trying to bring in some other, other communities or just conversations about what's working well for different, different frameworks.

[00:22:34] Card decks

[00:22:34] Katja: I know one surprising thing, which is totally unrelated, uh, that I got excited about and some other people did too, that different countries have different decks of cards.

[00:22:43] Like, standard playing cards are not always 52 with 4 suits.

[00:22:48] Wolfgang: they were, so they were always four suits. Uh, I was part of this group. So someone brought a Hungarian playing card deck and an Italian playing card deck. And it turns out that the ones that most people encounter is a French deck. So the 52 cards with the hearts, clubs, diamonds, and spades is French. And I think there was another Italian

[00:23:12] Katja: And also just the fact that there are 13, right? Because some of them started at 4 or something. Like, they didn't all go from 1 to king, yeah.

[00:23:22] Wolfgang: the Italian one was 1 to 7, and then I think it was Jack, Queen, King, the Hungarian. It was something like Jack Knight King or something like that. I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, and it had even fewer cards than the Italian one.

[00:23:38] Katja: But anyway, like, opens up, it opens up like a whole nother, like, standard probability thing, right, when you're designing a game or whatever that I had not been aware of at all and yeah, other people were very excited. And that was coincidence that like, people had brought these different, different cards to share with each other, so

[00:23:56] Jared: Yeah. That's a, that's a conversation that might not happen if it were a remote conference, right?

[00:24:05] Katja: Yeah, for sure, it wouldn't.

[00:24:07] Wolfgang: Yeah.

[00:24:08] Jared: yeah. Okay. And so I guess

[00:24:10] Community

[00:24:10] Jared: going back a little bit to talking about community, and it sounds like some of the things you mentioned were things that would, would improve the world. But do you have any specific examples which were kind of in that, uh, vein of things?

[00:24:25] Katja: I think the strongest one was, was education

[00:24:29] Wolfgang: Yeah.

[00:24:30] Katja: in terms of improving the world. That, that and the, and the theme that I talked about, like, just doing things locally, like, not, not projecting a fix onto some community that you're not really a part of, was the biggest.

[00:24:43] Jared: So locally within the Elm community, sort of, yeah, it sounds like a lot of these, uh, ways to use elm-review, how to use elm-pages scripts and improvements to, you know, doing compiler development, whatever else, um, comes up, virtual DOM, those, those things that, um, may help people in the community to use Elm.

[00:25:08] Wolfgang: Yeah.

[00:25:08] Jared: did I

[00:25:09] Education

[00:25:09] Katja: Yeah, and I guess, like, Elm Land is doing a lot of really great work in that area, uh, as well, in terms of, um, educating professionals to, like, to good patterns, I guess. and yeah, and then there are these other, other, uh, initiatives that I was talking about where it's, where it's. It's actually educating, um, people who aren't professional programmers, but who are maybe coming into the space.

[00:25:34] Jared: Very cool. Okay. And so, teaching functional programming specifically, and then, yeah, being able to localize Elm so that people can learn it in their own language. Was there anything else related to education? Were there people, I guess, actually doing that, the program of teaching and at what level were they teaching?

[00:25:53] If so.

[00:25:54] Wolfgang: Yeah, one of the first sessions was about.

[00:25:57] teaching It wasn't even necessarily teaching Elm or teaching Functional Programming, it was just teaching Programming. More generally, like it wasn't, they weren't teaching types or like recursion or anything like that. It was more of drawing shapes on a screen and getting them to, uh, part of it was like drawing on graph paper and translating that on to like just drawing a rectangle, drawing a triangle, drawing an oval, and how can you create these images on the screen that you've, Kind of traced out on graph paper.

[00:26:30] Um, like I remember one was drawing a shark and how do you get the mouth to show up with like layering shapes? And then eventually, I think those were, were fairly young children.

[00:26:39] Katja: Yeah, they were, and they were using Elm Playground, and also, like, adapted versions of Elm Playground. And, um, The person who's running that got very excited with the 3D, um, GLSL session that we did, like, realizing that they could then bring that back to their groups to be able to, like, start modeling with, like, actual textured, shaded 3D objects in the same, with, you know, with the same logic and the same spaces.

[00:27:08] And the other thing that came up in that, which I've just been reminded of is, um, they talked about AI. So one of the students, I mean, these, I think these, those specific students were, yeah, like eight or 10, like very young, um, had gone away and tried to use ChatGPT to like draw the shark.

[00:27:26] And realized it didn't quite work the way they expected it to, but then had written up like loads of comments about like reflecting on what about it worked and what about it didn't work. And that had brought into this, you know, very interesting conversation. AI was also one of the themes that came up a few times.

[00:27:42] There were a few sessions on AI.

[00:27:45] Jared: Wow. So yeah, it sounds like, uh, Was a variety of different topics and subjects. There was a lot of art, music, and incidental conversations. And so, yeah. Um,

[00:28:01] Closing thoughts

[00:28:01] Jared: do you have any closing thoughts about this camp, about the next Elm Camp to come, anything before we close up here?

[00:28:09] Wolfgang: I'm very excited. I think I, I, I've, I've, I've,

[00:28:15] Katja: be so good.

[00:28:16] Wolfgang: yeah, I've been saying to people since the last one that I don't, I don't know that I want to go to regular conferences anymore.

[00:28:22] Katja: No.

[00:28:23] Wolfgang: I mean, I went to Strange Loop last year and that was fun, but it's, it's such a different feeling. And I've had people try to convince me to go to other conferences since then.

[00:28:34] And it's just, I don't think it's for me, really. I like the, the unconference settings drastically more than I like a traditional conference.

[00:28:45] Katja: Yeah, it actually like, even as, I mean, I'll speak for myself, but as organizers, like, I didn't feel exhausted or overwhelmed while I was there and, like, often in the sessions, Traditional conference settings, there's so much information like being thrown at you constantly that you're not really like part of that it just gets very, it gets very exhausting.

[00:29:02] And in this, we also did like build in loads of longer breaks this time, which was amazing because people use them for those pairing sessions that I was talking about or to go swimming or going for walks. And, and we had like the sessions were longer as well. So it was just much more like f, fluid conversations and then sort of people just lining the hallway like literally like hallway track, where there were conversations of like a pair of people down each side because no one wanted to miss anything And so like people were sort of walking through these like lines of people just having like very intense conversations all down the hallway So yeah next year very excited probably gonna try and keep it small like again Like I think it would yeah, 60. We talk about going up to 80 people and being able to do the same vibe, but beyond that, maybe not.

[00:29:53] And it's, it's really difficult to find the venues. So, like, if you've heard us saying all the different things that were possible because of this specific venue, we've been so lucky to have that two years in a row, to be able to find that. Because we do, we want to do it in different places. , because we think that that allows, like, Different people to be local to it, to find it easy to get there.

[00:30:13] Um, so we're, we're talking about maybe America next year, but that also might be most difficult for the most amount of people to get to, so we're being open, open minded about it right now. But yeah, if anyone has any, like, venues in mind that they've been to that sound like could, could house this, then let us know.

[00:30:33] Wolfgang: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Jared: Okay, so yeah, I can put a, I guess an email contact for submitting those ideas if folks have them. Would that

[00:30:44] Katja: Yeah, there's a, yeah, yeah, team at Elm Camp, uh, dot Camp. It Okay, gets to us, yeah.

[00:30:52] Jared: perfect. Alright. Well.

[00:30:56] Katja: forgot to mention the swag, Wolfgang.

[00:30:58] Wolfgang: Oh, the, the, uh, patches, the towels,

[00:31:03] Katja: Yeah, we gave everyone an Elm towel.

[00:31:05] Wolfgang: a, you know, a hand sewn patch. Yes.

[00:31:11] Jared: but it's a towel,

[00:31:12] Wolfgang: But it is a towel. Don't forget, don't forget it.

[00:31:15] Jared: yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:18] Katja: year. They made it.

[00:31:24] Jared: Alright, well, thank you both again for sharing and for organizing and to the rest of the organizers for Elm Camp and the guests who went and for everybody listening.

[00:31:38] Katja: the guests are the thing, for sure.

[00:31:40] Jared: Very

[00:31:40] Katja: just build this space, right? We open it up, we get everyone together, and then they make, they make it all. So.

[00:31:48] Jared: Very cool. Sounds great. Looking forward to it and hoping to hear more about what comes with Elm Camp now. Oh, I guess one thing I wanted to say before we end here is, um, I think it was mentioned before that there may be some information about, like, having, the structure of the Elm Camp more open of, like, how to run your own, uh, camp.

[00:32:10] Wolfgang: Mm-Hmm.

[00:32:11] Katja: Yeah. That is something that we aspire to. Um, and I, I think, I think it could, I think it could, it could happen. It could happen, um, after next year. I mean, I also have something in the back of my mind about, like, Is there like a mini Elm Camp thing? I don't know. This year was so brilliant because we had two full days.

[00:32:34] We had, everyone was there for three nights, and last year everyone was there for two nights. So we have like kind of crammed everything in. So, uh, yeah, but whether there's like, whether there's an opening for, for people to have like more local gatherings, for just like a day, like how Elm, Elm Oslo day used to be pretty fun.

[00:32:55] Wolfgang: There's also, I mean, to, to that effect, there's been more local meetups for Elm, I've noticed. At least, I think, both in Europe and in the States, there has been. So, that is definitely an option, too. It doesn't have to be a full day. If you want to start out small, with just a handful of people, meeting for a couple hours, and have it grow from there.

[00:33:18] Katja: Yeah. So we haven't, we haven't like totally thought about like, what we could offer as like, as Elm Camp, the organizing team. But if anybody out there listening to this wants to set up an Elm Camp, we're not precious about the, like, the brand or the IP or whatever it is. Like, we, we would rather support you and help you set it up and, and tell you what we know and list you on the website and everything.

[00:33:44] So, yeah, if someone's, either that or if someone, someone like that wants to join the organizing committee, we're also open, open to new members.

[00:33:53] Jared: Well, I guess with that, then thanks again for doing this and thanks for everybody listening and a great one.

[00:34:00] Katja: Yeah, great. Thanks for having us on.

[00:34:01] Wolfgang: Thank you.

[00:34:02] Katja: See you later.

[00:34:03]